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Vehk
Initiate

Reged: 06/07/03
Posts: 97
The Thief goes to Cyrodiil
      #1482439 - 06/10/03 12:31 AM

"And in those waning days, I decided to go to Cyrodiil with my Water Face, so that I might tell all I met along the way the truth and the truth only. I was then the Thief of the world, and my charges were three (and that being a very significant number to me), one of which was the Tower.

"And it was of the Tower that my emperor wanted to hear. He was dying and I loved him yet. He, too, was a Master and so I knew that he realized just how big a realm that the Tower encompassed. I am sure that when I meet the Warrior and Arctus again, they will have brought similar burdens. My guesses are the Lord and Ritual, but I do not know and would be delighted to be wrong.

"Naturally, many of my acolytes and lovers and assassins want to come with me, and I will not tell them no; the way to the Ruby Throne is long, and I have not taken so long a physical sojourn as this since lending my hands to the Ghostgate. I will enjoy their company and answer their questions, too, and no doubt I will put many to bed with song with the borrowed voice of my sister. Further still, my coming is known and the manner of my coming, and I understand that there are lorekeepers that want my counsel, my explanations, the light of my heaven-seen face. I sent warnings that no riddles will come of it. The lawyers are pouting now.

"Understand that I am a Master and make my own way. For me, Mystery is dead. That is so hard to write. You cannot feel the pause. My brother is dead.

"Anyway.

"So for all these reasons and more, and mostly because there are more mysteries in the Capital that I do not know and shall take the place of those I own, this pilgrimage shall be filled with nothing but untangled truth about the Tower. I can hear him now: what of Auriel's breaking? What of my twinned antecedent? What is the meaning of the endeavor that Artaeum refuses to admit? What, indeed, said the Thief to the Master that mostly knew.

"For my part, I know my own first question: What do you want to hear first?"

--Book of the Last Hour, Vehk and Vehk

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Reubin Halfmoon
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Re: The Thief goes to Cyrodiil
      #1483165 - 06/10/03 09:30 AM

How sweet of you to kiss the Empire's hand one last time before it passes into the night. But I must apologize for that, the time for hostility has long since past. That is a burden that I still bear.

Mystery may have left this would but his spirit still flows through your words. If this is an open letter to delve into your knowledge then I would like to know of the Psijics. What is their true nature and where did Iachesis original flock go and what connections do they have with the Daedra?

--------------------
Iya-Neht-Doht-Oht-Roht-Iya-Lyr

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B
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Reged: 11/10/01
Posts: 1678
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Re: The Thief goes to Cyrodiil
      #1483617 - 06/10/03 11:53 AM

Vehk,

The Charges of Three must have been a burden unto you at one time. Perhaps they continue to take their toll even today. Were these charges True Crimes or merely accusations of the unenlightened? I guess it is of little consequence, since those who accuse are often the ones who punish. Whether the charges were valid or not, the punishment may still be enforced.

Being one of those lorekeepers of which you spoke, I feel that I must ask many questions. The Psijic Order is but one of many topics I would love to explore. I mean no offense by my inquires, but the time has come to ask such difficult questions. Are we ready to hear the answers? I, for one, would like to think so. No matter how our questions come to you, I promise that your words in response will find their way to this place so that all may read and learn from them.

I thank you again for your time and energy, but please forgive me, I must take leave to consult with my fellow lorekeepers. A question asked in haste, is a question that one regrets to waste.

--------------------
~B

Assistant Librarian at The Imperial Library

Forum Scholars Guild | The Modern Adventurer

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Hasphat Antabolis
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Reged: 05/03/01
Posts: 21
Loc: Hla Oad
Re: The Thief goes to Cyrodiil
      #1485059 - 06/10/03 05:14 PM

Vehk is it? Well well. Perhaps you better start with a smaller bite than the "true nature of the Psijiics" if we hope to have a complete answer before the Dragon Breaks once and for all. Unless my readings on Dwemer numerology are mistaken, the Psijiic Endeavor touches the heart of most of the mysteries of this world. Ha ha, thankfully I am under no self-imposed obligation to speak clearly!

So, Thief, let us begin with something smaller, but still large enough for those of us still within Time. Tell us of the Psijiics and their relation to the Marukhati Selectives (and, by extension, to the Tower).

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Xanathar
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Reged: 05/31/00
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Re: The Thief goes to Cyrodiil
      #1486562 - 06/10/03 11:57 PM

Hasphat Antabolis, for so long I haven't seen you. Since your absent, the world is descending. After all three thieves, (To you Vehk, I am suffering the same as you. I want personally meet the mystery, learn all his knowledge and wisdom. It's very bad he ended that way.) now it'll be the time of heartland human to end. Too bad... very bad... I don't know with all these Psijiics and the rumor of daedra intervention. Is it the era that we would call the Era of Destruction? or the judgement day? Haha... *sigh* Well, sorry for my whining here... Anyway, how are you doing lately?

--------------------
~Xayah Ayem Neht
Librarian at The Imperial Library
Member of The Forum Scholars Guild
Engineer of the Imperial Airship

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Vehk
Initiate

Reged: 06/07/03
Posts: 97
Re: The Thief goes to Cyrodiil
      #1486877 - 06/11/03 01:32 AM

"By extension, to the Tower..."?

It extends the other way, I'm afraid. But yes, let's go that way, spinning. I have spoken of this in an earlier life [21].


What is the Tower?

The Tower is an ideal, which, in our world of myth and magic, means that it is so real that it becomes dangerous. It is the existence of the True Self within the Universal Self, and is embodied by the fourth constellation, and is guarded by the Thief, the third. The Thief is another metaphorical absolute; in this case, he represents the “taking of the Tower” or, and sometimes more importantly, the “taking” of the Tower’s secret.

What is the Tower’s secret?

How to permanently exist beyond duplexity, antithesis, or trouble. This is not an easy concept, I know. Imagine being able to feel with all of your senses the relentless alien terror that is God and your place in it, which is everywhere and therefore nowhere, and realizing that it means the total dissolution of your individuality into boundless being. Imagine that and then still being able to say “I”. The “I” is the Tower.

What created the Tower?

The Wheel created it. The Wheel is the structure of this universe, and it is easiest to see it that way: rim, spokes, hub, and all the spaces within and without. I shall take each in turn.

What created the Wheel?

Anu and Padhome, stasis and change, both vast realms sitting in the void, they created it. Not vast, infinite, as the void was infinite. Imagine an infinity enclosed by another; you come away with a bubble. Now watch as the two bubbles touch. Their intersection is a perfect circle of pattern and possibility that we shall call the Aurbis. The Aurbis is the foundation of the Wheel.

What are the spaces within and without of the Wheel?

Outside the wheel is the void, bereft of anything. It cannot be named. If it has more aspects than stasis and change, they are outside of true language. Inside of the Wheel is the Aurbis, as I have explained.

What is the rim of the Wheel?

As the process of subcreation continued, both Anu and Padhome awakened. For to see your antithesis is to finally awaken. Each gave birth to their souls, Auriel and Sithis, and these souls regarded the Aurbis each in their own part, and from this came the etada, the original patterns. These etada eventually congealed.

Anu’s firstborn, for he mostly desired order, was time, anon Akatosh. Padhome’s firstborn went wandering from the start, changing as he went, and wanted no name but was branded with Lorkhan. As time allowed more and more patterns to individualize, Lorkhan watched the Aurbis shape itself and grew equally delighted and tired with each new shaping. As the gods and demons of the Aurbis erupted, the get of Padhome tried to leave it all behind for he wanted all of it and none of it all at once. It was then that he came to the border of the Aurbis.

He saw the Tower, for a circle turned sideways is an “I”. This was the first word of Lorkhan and he would never, ever forget it.

What are the spokes of the Wheel?

For ages the etada grew and shaped and destroyed each other and destroyed each other’s creations. Some were like Lorkhan and discovered the void outside of the Aurbis, though if some saw the Tower I do not know, but I know that, if they did, none held it in such high esteem. In any case, some of those that did see the void created its like inside the Aurbis, but each of these smaller voids sought each other out. Void shall follow void; the etada called it Oblivion. What was left of the Aurbis was solid change, otherwise known as magic. The etada called this Aetherius.

Now Lorkhan had by at this point seen everything there was to see, and could accept none of it. Here were the etada with their magic and their voids and everything in between and he yearned for the return to flux but at the same time he could not bear to lose his identity. He did not know what he wanted, but he knew how to build it. Through trickery (“We have made the Aurbis unstable with the voids”) and wisdom (“We are of two minds and so should make a perfect gem of compromise”) and force (“Do what I say, rude spirit”), he bound some of the strongest etada to create the World.

The spokes of the Wheel are the eight gifts of the Aedra, sons and daughters of Aetherius. The voids between each spoke number sixteen, and their masters are the sons and daughters of Oblivion. The center of the Wheel was another circle, the hub, which held everything together. The etada called this Mundus.

What is the hub of the Wheel?

We are the hub, the Mundus that goes by many names. We are the heart of all creation. What does this mean? Why should we care? Lorkhan created it so that we could find what he did. In fact, and here is the secret: the hub is the reflection of its creators, the circle within the circle, only the border to ours is so much easier to see. Stand in its flux and remain whole of mind. Look at it sideways and see the “I”.

This is the Tower.

Now then, yes, that's a good place to start, I think. Where shall we go from here, endeavor or break or the endeavor to break?

Edited by Vehk (06/11/03 01:33 AM)

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Alastor Grimwald
Curate

Reged: 10/25/02
Posts: 410
Loc: Isle of Balfiera
Re: The Thief goes to Cyrodiil
      #1487135 - 06/11/03 03:05 AM

Well, this is all so very sudden! Ahem...

Has the Endeavor been explained? Certainly not in detail, but perhaps it is a push in the general direction. This comment is very interesting, but I will have to give it some more thought. I could hardly care at the moment of how it is possible to break the spin of time in the manner of first 'seeing' the tower(if this is indeed a requisit of breaking time) without first completly understanding what it means to see this tower in the first place. Is it a moment of tranceding all reason? If so then there can be no explination of this 'I', as it is nothing(therefore everything), and not an experience our dualistic minds can explain.

I have too many questions running through my mind at the moment. Perhaps with some time to meditate within my own Tower and further comment from Vehk we shall aquire a more thorough understanding of the Endeavor of the Psijic Order and the Dancing of the Selectives.(In that order)


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Fn0rd
Initiate

Reged: 05/12/03
Posts: 64
Re: The Thief goes to Cyrodiil
      #1487499 - 06/11/03 05:42 AM

Ah, Vehk,

That you bestow upon us now your knowledge and wisdom of these things, for which we have so long sought, is immeasurably significant. I find myself filled to the brink--indeed, overflowing--with questions that I can scarcely fathom, and I fear the answers will only serve to muddle my understanding all the more...

... and yet I must implore your erudition of these matters. My recent desire to understand has been ineffably branded in my mind, and the chance to hear words of wisdom and lore from such prestigious lips leaves me giddy, as I'm sure my colleagues are as well.

So many questions... but I am weary of getting ahead of myself. I ask, then, only that you continue where you left off: the creation of the Wheel and the Aurbis, and the nature of the Tower. Tell us of the origin of the Psijic Order, and the purpose of their sacred Endeavor: to perceive the Tower. We await your response with limitless anticipation, and as much patience as mortals can muster...

--------------------
"Lebowski? Nobody calls me Lebowski, Lebowski. You're Lebowski. I'm... The Dude! So that's what you call me! Or, you know, Duder, His Dudeness... El Duderino, if you're not into the whole brevity thing."

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Nigedo
Disciple

Reged: 05/29/03
Posts: 1378
Loc: Deep beneath Vvardenfell
Re: The Thief goes to Cyrodiil
      #1487777 - 06/11/03 08:13 AM

i take back my former blasphemies. my aplogies are profuse.

Also, the interpretation i have given below i wrote on the 10th but wished to research further before bringing to other's eyes, please therefore forgive any errors in the light of more recent revelation.

_______________________________________

Edited to hide my shame - Nigedo

--------------------
Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec

The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ

Edited by Nigedo (06/11/03 12:28 PM)

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B
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Reged: 11/10/01
Posts: 1678
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Re: The Thief goes to Cyrodiil
      #1487992 - 06/11/03 09:54 AM

In reply to:

The Words of Vehk:

It extends the other way, I'm afraid. But yes, let's go that way, spinning. I have spoken of this in an earlier life [21].


For those of you who may not be aware of it, this is what Vehk spoke of eariler: The Thirty-Six Lessons of Vivec: Sermon Twenty-One.
______________

My good, Vehk, I am humbled by your teachings. I have seen a select few who can speak in riddles and yet speak so clearly when the need arises. You seem to have mastered both. I thank you for words once again.

If what you say is true, that the "hub is a reflection of its creators," does that mean that what is possible inside the outer circle (wheel) is, in fact, possible inside the inner circle (hub)? Meaning that which can be done in the Aurbis can be done on the Mundus?

Or have I misinterpreted all of this and are you merely saying that if one were to "stand in its flux and remain whole of mind" he or she could find the Tower thus creating a gateway to the Aurbis or perhaps even beyond?

Is any of this what the Psijic Order seeks to exploit with their Endeavor? Do they seek to find "True Self within the Universal Self?"

If it pleases you, I would love to hear more of the Psijic Endeavor.

--------------------
~B

Assistant Librarian at The Imperial Library

Forum Scholars Guild | The Modern Adventurer

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Nigedo
Disciple

Reged: 05/29/03
Posts: 1378
Loc: Deep beneath Vvardenfell
Re: The Thief goes to Cyrodiil
      #1488124 - 06/11/03 10:35 AM

Although, in the light of Vehk's recent disclosures on these subjects, much of this information is now known - I would like to offer some analysis of Sermon 21 that I compiled before Vehk's teaching above was revealed to us - therefore please forgive any inconsistencies with the received truth.

In the Scripture of The Wheel, Vivec is first of all giving us a model of the organisation of the cosmos, of its regulation by Time and binding to the plane of the Mundus.

In this sermon, Vivec seems to speak from a perspective opposed to the moral positon given to the Aedra in Aldmeri tradition. This would appear to be consistent with an ancient Chimeri perspective, where the old gods, the Aedra, have been renounced in favour of the teachings of Daedra, principally Boethiah and Mephala, (ref. The Changed Ones) and the mourning of the Sundering is forgotten in favour of the Psijiic Endeavour.

Therefore here, the perspective of the Aedra is given as mourning a loss of liberty and pre-creation glory, making them bitter and deceitful towards mortals ("they were givers before liars").

Taking into account this bias the sermon becomes a useful scholarly tool for understanding relationships between the et'Ada and the Mundus, Time and the Beginning Place.

Moreover some further clues are provided that contribute to an understanding of the transcendance involved in the Psijiic Endeavour, the use of Lorkhan's Heart and the Right Reaching.

Here's my interpretation.

---------------------------

The Thirty-Six Lessons of Vivec: Sermon Twenty-One

The Scripture of the Wheel

First:

'The Spokes are the eight components of chaos, as yet solidified by the law of time: static change, if you will, something the lizard gods refer to as the Striking. That is the reptile wheel, coiled potential, ever-preamble to the never-action.'

Second:

'They are the lent bones of the Aedra, the Eight gift-limbs to SITHISIT, the wet earth of the new star our home. Outside them is the Aurbis, and not within. Like most things inexplicable, it is a circle ...



"eight components of chaos" and "the lent bones of the Aedra, the Eight gift-limbs to SITHISIT" - I suggest that these are the parts of the Aedra that they contributed to the creation of Nirn or the Mundus. (ref: The Monomyth)

The Psijiics perceive the contribution as the whole of the Aedra's divine flesh, a process that killed their orginal forms and transfigured them into the et'Ada, while the Cyrodiilic tradition says that the Aedra only contributed parts of themselves.

In any case the creation of the Mundus was a process that permanently changed the natures of the Aedra and appears to have bound them to the fate of their creation.

This view is supported by the Yokudan traditon where the 'spirits' that helped Sep to form the skin ball as an alternative to performing the Walkabout are left stranded, or fixed to their creation.

("The lent bones" is a reference to the act of lending those body parts to the creation, rather than any non ES 'christian' reference.)

"chaos" - in this context represents Padomay and Lorkhan who is recorded as Padomay's son (ref. Varieties of Faith in the Empire). Altmeri tradition records that Lorkhan's heart is in fact the heart of the Mundus (ref. Momomyth) and cannot be destroyed apart from the Mundus (to which the et'Ada are linked). Therefore the 'eight components' and 'gift limbs' are part of/ given to Lorkhan's desire- the Mundus.

"SITHISIT" - Lorkhan/ Padomay. SITHIS or SITHISIT is "the start of the house" the corrupting force that defies stasis (Anu) and causes change (refs. Sermon10, Sithis).

"static change" - the interplay of Anu Padomay or Anu Sithis or Satak Akel led to the emergence of Nirn/Nir/Anuiel (the Gray Maybe) a blending of stasis and change.

But the aspects of this fusion were without definition until the apperance of Akatosh or Auriel who gave all other aspects Time to know themselves.

The Anuad embodies Time in the interplay of Anu and Padomay (Satak-Akel) from the Anuad "The first ones were brothers: Anu and Padomay. They came into the Void, and Time began."

In the Yokudan tradition it is the effect of Akel "the Hunger" upon Satak "the serpent" that allows the emergence of the aspects of Satakal, but it is Tall Papa that sets a path to the Far Shores so that the spirits can wait between "world skins" and avoid being eaten by Satakal - reabsorbed into the Gray Maybe.

The likely conclusion is that Time is an aspect of Anu that provides stasis to the other aspects in the face of Padomay's destruction. The wheel describes the "static change" of the aurbis, the interplay of Anu-Padomay and also the current state of the creation, regulated by Time and fixed to the Mundus, a reflection of an aspect of change i.e. Lorkhan.

"the Striking. That is the reptile wheel, coiled potential, ever-preamble to the never-action." - the perpetual motion of the wheel is described here as a reptile wheel, coiled and never striking. I see this as a snake chewing its own tail and read it with the Yokudan tradition of Satakal. Since the creation of the Mundus, it would seem that time has pivoted upon it at the centre of the wheel.


... Circles are confused serpents, striking and striking and never given leave to bite. The Aedra would have you believe different, but they were givers before liars. Lies have turned them into biters. Their teeth are the proselytizers; to convert is to place oneself in the mouth of falsehood; even to propitiate is to be swallowed. '


Third:

'The enlightened are those uneaten by the world.'



As I have already mentioned, the Yokudan tradition describes The Walkabout - a process where the 'spirits' learned to move "at strange angles" to avoid being eaten by Satakal "The Worldskin". The process of the eating of Satakal is regulated by Time and occurs in cycles. The "enlightened" learn how to move outside the limits of the motions of the wheel (to move sideways) and avoid being eaten by its regular cycles.


Fourth:

'The spaces between the gift-limbs number sixteen, the signal shapes of the Demon Princedoms. It is the key and the lock, series and manticore.'



I can only see that this applies to the realms of the Daedra which are sixteen in number. This indicates that the eight "gift limbs" have a crossed relationship, that is interlinked, so that sixteen metaphorical spars radiate from the centre of the wheel.

Fifth:

'Look at the majesty sideways and all you see is the Tower, which our ancestors made idols from.



This seems to be clear enough. If a simple wheel is turned 90 degrees on its vertical axis it could appear as a tower shape. This must allude to viewing the structure or relationships of the wheel from a different perspective, here called simply "sideways".


... Look at its center and all you see is the begotten hole, second serpent, womb-ready for the Right Reaching, exact and without enchantment.'


This is perplexing but I am sure relates to Lorkhan, the Heart of the Mundus. In Yokudan tradition the second serpent is Sep who Tall Papa made from the leftover shed skins of Satakal and who carries within him residue of all the hungers of the previous Woldskins.

In this context, the Mundus is the essence of Sep, both being constructed from the waste essence of Satakal. In all traditions, Lorkhan or Set's heart is removed by the violence of the et'Ada.

Clan Mother Ahnissi tells us "the Heart of Lorkhaj was filled with the Great Darkness" (ref. Words of Clan Mother Ahnissi to her Favored Daughter)and Yokudan tradition describes that the hunger in Sep fell out of his mouth when Tall Papa crushed him with a big stick.

I think that the "hole" referred to here is perhaps the hole where Lorkhan's heart should be. Perhaps (and I apologise for my lack of certainty at this stage) interaction with the Heart and interaction with the Hole left where the Heart should be are two different ways of transcending the Mundus, the Right Reaching may be a process of touching the hole, the womb of the Mundus, and thereby touching the core of the Wheel.

It is worth noting also that "Varieties Of Faith In The Empire" describes Sheogorath as "the 'Sithis-shaped hole' of the world".


Sixth:

'The heart of the second serpent holds the secret triangular gate.'

Seventh:

'Look at the secret triangular gate sideways and you see the secret Tower.'


Eighth:

'The secret Tower within the Tower is the shape of the only name of God, I.'

The ending of the words is ALMSIVI.



I am inclined to feel that this last part describes the relationship between the Tribunal and the Heart of Lorkhan. But in Sermon 13 Vivec mentions that to rotate the triangle is to pierce the Beginning Place.

This must speak of the link between the Heart of Lorkhan and the Beginning Place of Anu-Padomay and the potential to exploit that link through the Heart or perhaps through the Heart Hole.

I should say that I do not see the Wheel as a physical reality but rather as a model of laws governing the relationships and fixed or cardinal points of the cosmos.

________________________________

Edited to remove some spelling errors and clarify summary - nigedo


--------------------
Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec

The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ

Edited by Nigedo (06/11/03 12:44 PM)

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Nigedo
Disciple

Reged: 05/29/03
Posts: 1378
Loc: Deep beneath Vvardenfell
Re: The Thief goes to Cyrodiil
      #1488454 - 06/11/03 12:11 PM

"does that mean that what is possible inside the outer circle (wheel) is, in fact, possible inside the inner circle (hub)? Meaning that which can be done in the Aurbis can be done on the Mundus?

B, I know that this question is addressed to Vivec but I would like to offer an opinion.

"Mannimarco, God of Worms, the Necromancers: ... The Maruhkati Selective showed us all the glories of the Dawn so that we might learn, simply: as above, so below." (ref. Where were you when ...)

I believe that Mannimarco is demonstating that the same laws govern
the Aurbis as the Mundus (the Mundus being a "reflection" - Vivec).

This is conjecture, but, that the secret of the Tower is not evident to all immortals is possibly hinted in Vivec's other recent teachings - when the Blue Star Mnemoli charts a path through the Aurbis every untime - it seems that a break of the Dragon causes a temporary disruption of the normal equilibrium of the Wheel a separation of the cardinal points of the universe, that allows those immortals that are aware of it to take advantage of the temporary non-linearity of the cosmos to explore beyond their normal bounds.

The Endeavor by contrast is likely to be an attempt not to disrupt the Wheel but to circumvent its limitations or, better, to pass through its limitations by connecting directly to the Aurbis.

Clan Mother Ahnissi says that the "First Secret" of Fadomai (Padomay) is the knowledge to pass between the Lunar Lattice that blocks the way between the Aurbis and Mundus. Padomay's children, the Daedra, heard the secret shouted by Yffre and so they can pass freely from their realms (between the spokes) into the Mundus (the Hub).

But this surely works both ways. "The Lunar Lorkhan" relates the moons to the physical remains of Lorkhan's divine flesh, so metaphorical or not, these texts seem to illustrate a path to the Aurbis through Lorkhan, or through what he left us of his original self.

I don't know that this actually answers your question though?

--------------------
Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec

The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ

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Vehk
Initiate

Reged: 06/07/03
Posts: 97
Re: The Thief goes to Cyrodiil
      #1488573 - 06/11/03 12:43 PM

Oh my sweet little Nigedo, where did you fall from? I hardly need teach the wide-awake. You know at least one walking path and it would gladden me that you restart my Whirling School. At least in scripture AE ANET CHIM.

"In the end, rejoice as a hostage released from drumming torment but that savors his wound."

I will give you your tongue back when I am no longer mad at your outburst.

Oh little bee, you buzz about the problem, always afraid to sting. Let me take your fear of death away so that you can stab at the troubles of the world forever. I will answer your question next.

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Nigedo
Disciple

Reged: 05/29/03
Posts: 1378
Loc: Deep beneath Vvardenfell
Re: The Thief goes to Cyrodiil
      #1488784 - 06/11/03 01:39 PM

I am grateful that you allow me to keep my name. Let me know when I have my tongue and I will contain the babbling.

--------------------
Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec

The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ

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Alastor Grimwald
Curate

Reged: 10/25/02
Posts: 410
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Re: The Thief goes to Cyrodiil
      #1490399 - 06/11/03 08:00 PM

I am humbled by this discussion, but there is one thing which rings in my mind that I cannot ignore. What does it mean to shed yourself of limitation and slip through to Aurbis? Or better yet, 'should' mortals do such a thing? Can they even do this and survive to come back to Mundus?

You are wise to the words of Vehk Nigedo, and I applaud you on your analysis of the 21st sermon. What do mortals have to gain by glimpsing, or even existing within the Aurbis? If one is but the reflection of the other, how are either different in any sense? I have devoted my efforts to the invisible worlds and this information gives me much to learn regarding this, but I ask, even with the knowledge of the Right-Reaching, what would be the point of it all?

Edited by Alastor Grimwald (06/11/03 08:11 PM)

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Vehk
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Re: The Thief goes to Cyrodiil
      #1491226 - 06/12/03 12:12 AM

What is the relationship between the Psijic Order and the Psijic Endeavor?

Nothing but a namesake, I am sorry to say. Now we can end that mystery. The Endeavor is a method of achieving the Tower and then what to do after. The Order is not, and does not really care for the idea of the Endeavor at all, thinking it wrong-headed nearly from the start.

So what is the Psijic Order?

A monastic order of the Altmer, impressive with age, and obsessed with a kind of mythic genealogy, made famous by their monomythism. Theirs was mostly the study of reverse-ancestry as a means to combat spiritual and material degradation. Or at least it was, I should say, as I do not know what they do now and do not much care. They were wrong-headed nearly from the start.

It is interesting to note that their original views were very unorthodox for Altmer, and thus their exile from Alinor. These views included the suggestion that Anu’s son, the Time Dragon, was formed in reaction to Padhome’s influence. In effect, Anu had finally done something. This inconceivable effect gave rise to an equally inconceivable cause, and so PSJJJJ was named and the Order eventually took his name.

Veloth was not a member of these exiles, no. Some of the Order’s precepts and ideas do (or did) flourish in the beginnings of the Alessian Order, the Temple of the One in Cyrodiil, most Maruhkati sects (including the Selectives, though they would deny it), Ancestral-Mothism, and, most famous of all, the Mages Guild.

Now we can move on safely to the Endeavor. Any questions up to this point?


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Alastor Grimwald
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Re: The Thief goes to Cyrodiil
      #1491273 - 06/12/03 12:23 AM

By all means continue, I have no questions.

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Striker
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Re: The Thief goes to Cyrodiil
      #1491441 - 06/12/03 01:19 AM

Does Vehk torment us again with implications of meaning? Is the true way not to try passing through Oblivion or Aetherius to the Rim to finally reach the un-named void? The Wheel is the Tower. From this point of view, it is revealed that the wheel is not a sphere - it is circular and flat.

Could it be that the true path is to find a way to travel perpendicular to the Wheel rather than parallel? The difficulty lies in the fact that we do not know which way the Wheel lies. Nor do we know if the un-named void is where Godhood is gained, or if it is infact the Rim of the Wheel we must reach.

I await more teachings from Vehk.

-Striker

--------------------
Destination Morrowind
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Fn0rd
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Re: The Thief goes to Cyrodiil
      #1491794 - 06/12/03 03:47 AM

In reply to:

Now we can move on safely to the Endeavor. Any questions up to this point?



Some clarification, if you would be so kind; this is much to take in all at once, and I struggle to comprehend--and to unlearn my own false perceptions.

The et'Ada--the "Original patterns"--congealed as a result of Anuiel and Sithis "regarding" the Aurbis. I have always understood the et'Ada to be the Aedra (born of Anu? Or perhaps both Anu and Padomay?) and the Daedra (born of Padomay).

In reference to your analogy of the Wheel, however, you say that "The spokes of the Wheel are the eight gifts of the Aedra, sons and daughters of Aetherius. The voids between each spoke number sixteen, and their masters are the sons and daughters of Oblivion." Does this suggest, then, that the Aedra and Daedra originated from Aetherius and Oblivion, and not from Anuiel and Sithis? It is the origin of, and delineation between, the Aedra/Daedra that I am not as clear on as I should like to be.


--------------------
"Lebowski? Nobody calls me Lebowski, Lebowski. You're Lebowski. I'm... The Dude! So that's what you call me! Or, you know, Duder, His Dudeness... El Duderino, if you're not into the whole brevity thing."

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Vehk
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Re: The Thief goes to Cyrodiil
      #1491905 - 06/12/03 04:56 AM

"Sons and daughters of" should be read as associates of/associated with, especially insofar as this association was a conscious choice.

Today the common parlance is that only the eight that followed Lorkhan and created the Mundus are truly "Aedra," but this is folly. Some were not even the strongest of the Aetherius-aligned etada at the time, but were made as such by their creation of the dawn.

Remember, even the word "Daedra" started as a youthful rebellion.

I promised no riddles, but we speak here of the family-trees of the earliest divine planets, thrones, and seekers. Aurbis was created from the two, its energies coalesced into first forms, and these in turn made of the Aurbis what they could; keep sons and daughters in that context and it becomes easier to see them.

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Nigedo
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Re: The Thief goes to Cyrodiil
      #1492117 - 06/12/03 08:01 AM

Thank you, Vehk, for leave to speak.

All reflect this duality do they not? This is the substance of creation, but in this form we are more limitation than possibility, as Masser is more than Secunda (or is this the lie?).

So, I take it that you lead us now from Alteration to Mysticism.

From the breaking and changing of possibilities to the appreciation of the substance of their substance.

Altering the world's patterns is surely the weaker path, since the strongest of realities so altered will always reassert its form. An alterer may bend a wall to pass through it, but the wall will still exist the same when the spell is finished. A true mystic may pay the wall no heed.

But I long to understand more of the Temporal Myth, the 'making-of-dirt', perhaps you may tell us of "the foul lie"? But then, I suspect that this is after all the basis for the mystic Endeavour?

Alastor, you speak as one who has swallowed meaning too quickly and has lost pace with the feast. I can understand this and mean what I say kindly.

But, the truth it seems is not in the answers, but in understanding the questions, which at their deepest, remain riddles to me.

If the answer is "transcend the Mundus", what then is the question? This is worthy of pursuit.

--------------------
Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec

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Nazz
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Re: The Thief goes to Cyrodiil
      #1492237 - 06/12/03 09:07 AM

If I may pose one last set of questions before we move on. What of the 'Star Orphans’? How do they factor into the wheel? You said earlier that they are the children of Anu so are they the Aedra that did not participate in the forming of the Mundus? If that is correct do they make their home somewhere outside the wheel, but then if Auriel and Sithis are the rim that wouldn't be very likely.

--------------------
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B
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Re: The Thief goes to Cyrodiil
      #1492347 - 06/12/03 09:51 AM

In reply to:

Oh little bee, you buzz about the problem, always afraid to sting. Let me take your fear of death away so that you can stab at the troubles of the world forever. I will answer your question next.


Vehk,

I must admit that your words concerning the Psijic Order and the Psijic Endeavor have come as quite a shock. I find them to not only be surprising but also a bit disappointing. I have more questions than answers. While you say that “The Order is not, and does not really care for the idea of the Endeavor at all, thinking it wrong-headed nearly from the start,” I find that they certainly believe in something similar. Perhaps labeling it “the Endeavor” is incorrect. Perhaps they are misguided fools.

Master Celarus of the Psijic Order states in The Old Ways,

What, after all, is the origin of these spiritual forces that move the invisible strings of Mundus? Any neophyte of Artaeum knows that these spirits are our ancestors -- and that, while living, they too were bewildered by the spirits of their ancestors, and so on back to the original Acharyai. The Daedra and gods to whom the common people turn are no more than the spirits of superior men and women whose power and passion granted them great influence in the afterworld.

Certainly this is our truth and our religion. But how does it help us in our sacred duty of seliffrnsae, or providing “grave and faithful counsel” to lesser men?

Primarily, it is easy to grasp the necessity both of endowing good men with great power and making powerful men good. We recognize the multiple threats that a strong tyrant represents -- breeds cruelty which feeds the Daedra Boethiah and hatred which feeds the Daedra Vaernima; if he should die having performed a particularly malevolent act, he may go to rule in Oblivion; and worst of all, he inspires other villains to thirst after power and other rulers to embrace villainy...


I am puzzled and confused. Have people projected Importance on a group of people who have little significance in the goal of transcending of the Mundus? Are the Old Ways nothing more than religious propaganda?

In Sermon Twenty, you talk of how the lines of Moon Axle were collected and taken into caves. You continue to talk of how you taught the Whirling School to turn the lines into the spokes of the mystery wheels. I see that perhaps I was wrong in assuming that one the those Caves of which you spoke was the Dreaming Cave that the Psijic Order and, more importantly, Sotha Sil used to visit Oblivion. I guess that stands to reason: Why would Velothi philosophers travel to Arteaum?

Question upon question flows from my mind, but I will stifle the voice inside of my head.

I do not mean challenge your knowledge nor seek to debate your thoughts in this place because your words should be aimed at the many and not just the one. I will take a backseat and allow you to continue your lessons. Perhaps I can speak to you or someone else about the Order in another Time and Place. Perhaps when you have explained the Endeavor I will have better understanding of my conundrums surrounding the Psijic Order.

Please continue,

--------------------
~B

Assistant Librarian at The Imperial Library

Forum Scholars Guild | The Modern Adventurer

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Nigedo
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Re: The Thief goes to Cyrodiil
      #1492398 - 06/12/03 10:09 AM

Nazz, I am sure that you have made these observations but nonetheless;

According to the same teaching of Vehk, the Star Orphans are a "pantheon of forgotten deities … a tribe of gods and goddesses that apparently felt abandoned when the Sun Withdrew from the World-Making".

The Sun who withdrew from the World-Making would seem to me to be Magnus (ref. Varieties Of Faith In The Empire) who escaped the creation purpose of Lorkhan at the last moment.

According to Clan Mother Ahnissi "many of Fadomai's children escaped and became the stars. And many of Fadomai's children died to make Nirni's path stable." We can translate those that "died to make Nirni's path stable" as the eight Aedra who were transfigured by the creation through the contribution of themselves. But some other immortals it seems escaped the creation itself but remained trapped - in the sphere of the Mundus - as 'stars'.

These would feel "abandoned" by Magnus as the creation was actually his design and he may have lead many of the immortals involved into the plan on Lorkhan's behalf.

So yes, I believe that your observations are correct; they are those immortals that did not participate, but were not quick enough to leave the construction site. And I feel that they are now 'trapped' within the Mundus (or at least think that they are).

I will add that the over-simplified "Anuad" says that at the moment of creation, Nir died (a collection of the aspects of Anu, "Anu's children") and Anu hid in the Sun. I would say that, in this view, Anu too represents a collection of the aspects of Anu-Padomay that are dominated by the pole of Anu ("Anu's children" if you will), including Magnus. But the "Anuad" then relates a second stage of creation that seems to be closer to other accounts of the creation of the Mundus and it is hard to make good use of the Anuad at this level, so feel free to dismiss this part altogether. Clan Mother Ahnissi, by contrast, regards the driving force of creation to be Fadomai (Padhomay) so the Aedra are 'her' children.

--------------------
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Alastor Grimwald
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Re: The Thief goes to Cyrodiil
      #1493454 - 06/12/03 03:22 PM

Ah, too true, as it seems I have been rude by gobbling up what I think all of this means and vomiting it up upon the table for all to see.

If the answer is 'Trancend the Mundus', then obviously the question is beyond me at this point, as the deeper meanings of things do tend to go about unnoticed to the sleeping thinker.

I thank you for your wisdom Nigedo and await further comment from Vehk on the Endeavor that has so long been hidden in a veil of inconsistancy on the part of the Order who advocates that which they do not or cannot understand themselves.

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Fn0rd
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Re: The Thief goes to Cyrodiil
      #1493980 - 06/12/03 05:31 PM

In reply to:

promised no riddles, but we speak here of the family-trees of the earliest divine planets, thrones, and seekers. Aurbis was created from the two, its energies coalesced into first forms, and these in turn made of the Aurbis what they could; keep sons and daughters in that context and it becomes easier to see them.



The aspiration to explain the nature of the universe without such analogies is futile, and yet it is easy to take them much too literally. You have been as forthcoming as any could have asked, and we are grateful.

I begin to understand.

--------------------
"Lebowski? Nobody calls me Lebowski, Lebowski. You're Lebowski. I'm... The Dude! So that's what you call me! Or, you know, Duder, His Dudeness... El Duderino, if you're not into the whole brevity thing."

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Vehk
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Re: The Thief goes to Cyrodiil
      #1494089 - 06/12/03 05:54 PM

Ancestor worship is the common center of all Aldmeri religions. The application of that worship is an entirely different thing, and the designs of the Order have nothing to do with the Endeavor, though they may have inspired some to take that road.

The arbitrary and the motivated in regarding one's divine ancestors: ignoring a manifest concern for belief in them as us, instead we concern ourselves with intensity and its relationship with action, valorizing ‘little narratives’ and proliferation of narratives in our native cultures to the point that there is no perch from extraneous content. Pure subjectivity is no longer possible; instead it becomes akin to sensory deprivation, yet without the fear, for we sense things that remind us of the dawn: the sacrifice into the stabilizing bones, new-built towers with broken intentions, and first metals gone blue from exposure to the long sun. The quest toward the ur-you for certainty and foundations is not innocent. However, it is an honest vindication for truth and superhuman ideals, which means it should be regarded as such by our own sense of fault: we made this, we dreamed this, we made it viable by voting with our seductions, we will live again to show our genuine applause.

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Striker
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Re: The Thief goes to Cyrodiil
      #1494736 - 06/12/03 08:51 PM

So it could be said that the Order believe that deeds in life determine your fate in death - if you are 'Good' (As much as any mortal can be - and even that is subjective.), you will have a positive influence on both the afterworld and the Mortal world. Similarly with 'Evil' acts. Thus, even though people don't live forever, their actions, either positive or negative, or both, echo throughout eternity.

This would imply that the Endeavour is becoming a God while living.

Yes? No? Stay off the Moon Sugar?

-Striker

--------------------
Destination Morrowind
Don't click here!
The views expressed in this post are not necessarily mine.

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B
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Re: The Thief goes to Cyrodiil
      #1496950 - 06/13/03 10:24 AM

If you believe that your divine ancestors are a part of you, or at least part of “you” is present in each of your ancestors, then you could search for the original “you” throughout your ancestral lineage all the way back to the original spirits. Although, instead of merely tracing back on piece of parchment, if you were able to tap into that flux that exists, you could actually sense the Beginning and everything surrounding it. Along those same lines, if you were able to isolate that original aspect of yourself that is present in every generation, you could ‘ride’ that link throughout Time and live again...or, more specifically, become omnipresent.

Vehk, I appreciate the time you have devoted to my questions. Please continue to tell us of the Endeavor.

--------------------
~B

Assistant Librarian at The Imperial Library

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Fn0rd
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*BUMP*
      #1507617 - 06/16/03 09:31 AM

We can't allow such an enlightening discussion to fade into obscurity, now can we? The words of Vehk shall be made fresh in every lore seeker's mind.

--------------------
"Lebowski? Nobody calls me Lebowski, Lebowski. You're Lebowski. I'm... The Dude! So that's what you call me! Or, you know, Duder, His Dudeness... El Duderino, if you're not into the whole brevity thing."

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Enygma
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Reged: 06/17/03
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Picture within a picture
      #1513591 - 06/17/03 03:34 PM

hmm..
Surely I can't be the only one who sees what Vehk's teachings may suggest of the fate of the Dwemer.

Perhaps, like Magnus and Lorkhan had done with the Aedra, Kagrenac and kin did with the Dwemer. That is, Kagrenac created a world using the essence of the dwemer, thereby binding them to it. And, as had happened with the Aedra, the Dwemer were pulled down into it.. out of one existence and into another. They created their God, and it was themselves(...'I'...)

I think this suggests Kagrenac had created a 'hub within the hub', a counterpart to the Mundus as Mundus is to Aurbis. Surely there must have been a price for the Dwemer to pay, as there had been for the Aedra. I wonder if Kagrenac is regarded with the same resentment by his peers as his predecessor was?

Can it really be considered progress if all the answers only lead to more questions?

'As above, so below'



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B
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Re: Picture within a picture
      #1514471 - 06/17/03 07:20 PM

Absolutely amazing theory!

I must admit the thought hadn't really occurred to me. It does have some merit.

--------------------
~B

Assistant Librarian at The Imperial Library

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Fn0rd
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Re: The Thief goes to Cyrodiil
      #1515252 - 06/17/03 11:10 PM

In reply to:


Now then, yes, that's a good place to start, I think. Where shall we go from here, endeavor or break or the endeavor to break?



Perhaps the "not-so-Psijic" Psijic Endeavor is to break the Dragon? To halt the spinning progression of the Wheel, and therefore Time. To exist everywhere and nowhere, timeless and in all times, which itself allows the perception of the Wheel sideways: the Tower, the "Eye"... er, I mean, "I." (FNORD!)

Of this, I am most anxious to hear. I'm equally eager to learn of the Star Orphan Mnemoli's relation to all of this. Can the Dragon only be "broken" at Mnemoli's passing? And did the Dwemer--if their "Endeavor" was similar to that of the Psijic's--time their disappearance with such a passing? And what of the Selectives?

Your attentive audience waits and listens, Vehk...


--------------------
"Lebowski? Nobody calls me Lebowski, Lebowski. You're Lebowski. I'm... The Dude! So that's what you call me! Or, you know, Duder, His Dudeness... El Duderino, if you're not into the whole brevity thing."

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Alastor Grimwald
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Re: The Thief goes to Cyrodiil [Re: Fn0rd]
      #1527395 - 06/23/03 02:58 AM

Patience is rewarded, has the silence become too long?

Far be it for me to let such a discussion go away un-acknowledged.

Has the Psijiic order degenerated into nothing more than an elaborate school used by the exceptional? Has it always been so? I believe it was , but something about the sudden change within the order after the leave of Iachesis and the council doesn't give me the opinion that the mystery behind this order has been shattered once and for all. There are still too many questions regarding them, yet questions I could really care less to have answered in light that other more important matters can and are at hand.

Any opinions?

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phil_t
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Re: The Thief goes to Cyrodiil [Re: Alastor Grimwald]
      #1530554 - 06/23/03 08:02 PM

I do not believe that the Psijic order is what it once was, before its abcense and return. Iachesis and the Council did not return with Artaeum, what does this tell us about the success of their experiment??

--------------------
*Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec*
*Forum Scholars Guild | Tamriel Rebuilt*

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Nigedo
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Re: The Thief goes to Cyrodiil [Re: phil_t]
      #1540504 - 06/26/03 05:18 AM

The Thief appears to have gone on a brief Mid-Year break. :bemused:

*KICK*



--------------------
Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec

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zingbat
Curate

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Re: The Thief goes to Cyrodiil [Re: Striker]
      #1547788 - 06/27/03 07:28 PM

[QUOTE]
Could it be that the true path is to find a way to travel perpendicular to the Wheel rather than parallel? The difficulty lies in the fact that we do not know which way the Wheel lies. Nor do we know if the un-named void is where Godhood is gained, or if it is infact the Rim of the Wheel we must reach.
[/QUOTE]

Maybe what he is saying is that that the Nirn habitants have the power to free themselfs (whatever this is), thus conquering the Tower. But the Gods were smarter and didn't show the habitants of Nirn the Rim of the Wheel but instead made them look into the center. Triking them into their reclusion for their own purposes. The habitants of Nirn can travel the way but they have to find it first. What is the difference between a swampy labyrinth and a prison cell ? At least this is the way the elves think about mundus.




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Allerleirauh
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Re: The Thief goes to Cyrodiil [Re: Nigedo]
      #1555131 - 06/30/03 12:28 AM

I suspect Vehk made a lousy guar... he shows a certain reluctance to be put in harness and forced to work...

I can't stand to see this sink into oblivion...

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Fn0rd
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Re: The Thief goes to Cyrodiil [Re: Allerleirauh]
      #1558082 - 06/30/03 05:57 PM

It certainly isn't every day that a God decides to sit down, take you by the hand, and dutifully explain the meaning of life.

*COUGH*BUMP*COUGH*

--------------------
"Lebowski? Nobody calls me Lebowski, Lebowski. You're Lebowski. I'm... The Dude! So that's what you call me! Or, you know, Duder, His Dudeness... El Duderino, if you're not into the whole brevity thing."

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zingbat
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Re: The Thief goes to Cyrodiil [Re: Fn0rd]
      #1570721 - 07/03/03 05:53 PM

Life doesn't need to have a meaning in mundus. (or anywhere else :*) )


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Vehk
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Re: The Thief goes to Cyrodiil [Re: zingbat]
      #1830714 - 10/02/03 10:48 PM

What is the Psijic Endeavor?

The basis for the teachings of the Prophet Veloth, founder of present day Morrowind and father of Dunmeri culture. Veloth describes the Psijic Endeavor as a process of glorious apotheosis, where time itself is bent inward and outward into 'a shape that is always new'. Those who can attain this state, called chim, experience an ineffable sense of the godhead, and escape the strictures of the world-egg.

It should be noted that, while Veloth is given credit for establishing the anti-laws that govern the Endeavor, this process has its antecedents in the teachings of the Black Hands Mephala, Boethiah, Azura, Trinimac, and, of course, Lorkhan, through that lord's association with PSJJJJ.

What is ' chim '?

From the Ehlnofex: an ancient sigil connoting 'royalty', 'starlight', and 'high splendor'. As with most characters of that dangerous language, the sigil CHIM constantly distorts itself. Those scholars that can perceive its shape regard it as a Crowned Tower that threatens to break apart at the slightest break in concentration.

Representations of the chim, and by extension the Psijic Endeavor, are always protean values, such as the anumidi models renowned by the Dwemer, the Scarab of contemporary astrolothurges, and the Striking ("exact egg-cracking") of old Argonia. All of these representations possess an innate and constant aspect of transformation.

What is the purpose of the Psijic Endeavor?

To transcend mortal boundaries set in place by immortal rulers. At its simplest, the state of chim provides an escape from all known laws of the divine worlds and the corruptions of the black sea of Oblivion. It is a return to the first brush of Anu-Padomay, where stasis and change created possibility. Moreso, it the essence needed to hold that 'dawning' together without disaster. One that knows CHIM observes the Tower without fear. Moreso: he resides within.

I am confused. What is the relationship of the Psijic Endeavor and the Tower?

Ah. Because from within one, you may regard the other.

That helps little. What examples of the Psijic Endeavor exist today?

The world you stand on is said to be the first attempt at chim. It is also admittedly the most famous. That it was choreographed by Lorkhan and ultimately failed is well-documented, but whether or not this failure was intentional is still disputed.

Wait. Why would anyone want to purposely fail the process of CHIM?

And this is the most-reached destination of all that embark upon this road. Why would Lorkhan and his (unwitting?) agents sabotage their experiments with the Tower? Why would he crumble that which he esteems?

Perhaps he failed so you might know how not to.



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phil_t
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Re: The Thief goes to Cyrodiil [Re: Vehk]
      #1831142 - 10/03/03 04:16 AM

So, as i understand it, it was this CHIM that was used to power the Anumidi (at last, a proper term for them ) into being able to create the warps in time - and it is a similar principle which achieves the Dragon Breaks

I believe this may also help in my studies of the Provisional House

Quote:

Those who can attain this state, called chim, experience an ineffable sense of the godhead, and escape the strictures of the world-egg.




Quote:

One that knows CHIM observes the Tower without fear. Moreso: he resides within.




Lord Vehk is obviously more than aware of the power of CHIM, therefore could the Provional House be built within the Tower - a structure made of CHIM to keep the world at bay whilst regarding the Psijic Endeavor - namely the following from the Lesson 19:

Quote:

a non-spatial space filling to capacity with mortal interaction and information, a canvas-less cartography of every single mind it has ever known, an event that had developed some semblance of a divine spark




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Re: The Thief goes to Cyrodiil [Re: Vehk]
      #1831256 - 10/03/03 05:54 AM

Lord Vehk, I thank you for teaching us yet another lesson. I find it refreshing that you share your knowledge with us.

I have but one shortcoming at this time: In another lesson, you posed these questions and responses:


    What is the relationship between the Psijic Order and the Psijic Endeavor?

    Nothing but a namesake, I am sorry to say. Now we can end that mystery. The Endeavor is a method of achieving the Tower and then what to do after. The Order is not, and does not really care for the idea of the Endeavor at all, thinking it wrong-headed nearly from the start.

    So what is the Psijic Order?

    A monastic order of the Altmer, impressive with age, and obsessed with a kind of mythic genealogy, made famous by their monomythism. Theirs was mostly the study of reverse-ancestry as a means to combat spiritual and material degradation. Or at least it was, I should say, as I do not know what they do now and do not much care. They were wrong-headed nearly from the start.

    It is interesting to note that their original views were very unorthodox for Altmer, and thus their exile from Alinor. These views included the suggestion that Anu’s son, the Time Dragon, was formed in reaction to Padhome’s influence. In effect, Anu had finally done something. This inconceivable effect gave rise to an equally inconceivable cause, and so PSJJJJ was named and the Order eventually took his name.

    Veloth was not a member of these exiles, no. Some of the Order’s precepts and ideas do (or did) flourish in the beginnings of the Alessian Order, the Temple of the One in Cyrodiil, most Maruhkati sects (including the Selectives, though they would deny it), Ancestral-Mothism, and, most famous of all, the Mages Guild.

Now in your latest lesson you say:

    "It should be noted that, while Veloth is given credit for establishing the anti-laws that govern the Endeavor, this process has its antecedents in the teachings of the Black Hands Mephala, Boethiah, Azura, Trinimac, and, of course, Lorkhan, through that lord's association with PSJJJJ."

If the Psijic Order was established to divine PSJJJJ’s eternal and ever-changing mystery, why did they not follow the Endeavor as you claim? I mean, I know you said that the Order doesn't care for it and feels it is "wrong-headed," but how can they worship PSJJJJ without following this Endeavor. If the Endeavor is associated with PSJJJJ, what other groups worship PSJJJJ besides the Psijic Order?

Do you see my ignorance? I wear it upon my sleeve for all to see.

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Edited by B (10/03/03 06:17 AM)

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Re: The Thief goes to Cyrodiil [Re: Vehk]
      #1831304 - 10/03/03 06:31 AM

Thank you Master Vehk. This is very enlightening in many areas.

I now understand the historical connection between the Endeavour, the Order and ancient Aldmeri culture.

Relating this to your earlier comments about the Psijiic Order, "It is interesting to note that their original views were very unorthodox for Altmer, and thus their exile from Alinor. These views included the suggestion that Anu’s son, the Time Dragon, was formed in reaction to Padhome’s influence. In effect, Anu had finally done something. This inconceivable effect gave rise to an equally inconceivable cause, and so PSJJJJ was named and the Order eventually took his name."

I now perceive that both the Psijiic Order and the Psijic Endeavour take their first roots from the Aldmeri notion of PSJJJJ, the Endeavour itself being derived from the Chimeri appropriation of PSJJJJ as also discussed briefly in Source Of Chaos.

I must consider in detail the mysteries you have revealed concerning the 'secret syllable of Royalty', this really is very exciting.

Moreover, I am grateful that we can now determine that the many examples that you have provided of such mystic syllables are similar phonetic representations of Ehlnofex sigils.

As I now turn to ponder the implications of your teaching, I am reminded of these words from 'Sermon 13',

'Above them all is the horizon where only one stands, though no one stands there yet. It is proof of the new. It is the promise of the wise.'

and these from the 'The Scripture Of The Wheel',

'The enlightened are those uneaten by the world.'

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Re: The Thief goes to Cyrodiil [Re: Nigedo]
      #1831315 - 10/03/03 06:39 AM

Thank you, Nigedo, I had forgotten that the Chimeri had corrupted PSJJJJ for their own use. It's early here, and my mind is still half asleep.

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Re: The Thief goes to Cyrodiil [Re: B]
      #1831384 - 10/03/03 07:42 AM

You're quite welcome. I apologise for not acknowledging you there, I didn't notice any posts but Vehk's when I responded.

Quote:

I had forgotten that the Chimeri had corrupted PSJJJJ for their own use.



Hmm. Spoken like an Altmer, my dear B.

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Re: The Thief goes to Cyrodiil [Re: Nigedo]
      #1831647 - 10/03/03 11:23 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I had forgotten that the Chimeri had corrupted PSJJJJ for their own use.



Hmm. Spoken like an Altmer, my dear B.




That was kind of unintentional. I was making reference to Source of Chaos:

    "...appropriately, Padomay is just as ineffable an entity as Anu. This is how the Psijiic Order treats him, at least. His original (Aldmeris? Ehlnofex?) name is PSJJJJ, which is and was meant to be unpronounceable. The Order was founded and organized to divine Padomay's eternal and ever-changing mystery. "Sithis" is a corruption of "Psijii" which, in turn, was a derivation of the high concept PSJJJJ. Sithis was born when a nihilist sect of the already doom-ridden Chimeri merged (under Mephala's tutelage) Daedric elements with the Inexpressible Action that was Padomay. In essence they began to revere Padomay's Chaos nature (as opposed to that of Anu, who is Order), and over the years degenerated into a thuggish mystery-cult which wanted to "murder the world." The Dark Brotherhood was born in these times-- which, in Morrowind, is known as the Morag Tong. Some of the higher-level Morag Tong maintain that they predate the Dark Brotherhood (more evidence of this later). That, in fact, they are an organization devoted to playing out the eternal interplay of Nir. Assassination, they say, is the purest celebration of joy or living. Whatever the case, the Padomay of Morrowind (and isolated Dark Brotherhood sects) is not the Padomay of Artaeum....

I guess it might not be fair to call it a corruption, but perhaps a Psijic would view it as such.

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Re: The Thief goes to Cyrodiil [Re: Vehk]
      #1831997 - 10/03/03 02:42 PM

Quote:

One that knows CHIM observes the Tower without fear. Moreso: he resides within.




So, is CHIM the key to the Tower?

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Re: The Thief goes to Cyrodiil [Re: mafafu]
      #1836817 - 10/05/03 04:49 AM

It seems that it is the key to one way of reaching the Tower - however, as Vehk has taught us, there are six ways of reaching heaven through violence

Phil

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Re: The Thief goes to Cyrodiil [Re: phil_t]
      #1837934 - 10/05/03 02:40 PM

Again, I use the when a is more appropriate.

So, CHIM is a key to the Tower, perhaps the key to one door or way to the Tower.

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Re: The Thief goes to Cyrodiil [Re: mafafu]
      #1839165 - 10/05/03 11:24 PM

This is where my thoughts have led me.

The Tower may regarded in many ways.

Lorkhan saw it in the penumbra of the Beginning Place. The Aedra represented its form as the earliest structure in the Dawn Era. The Selectives saw it as the capstone of a mythic structure they wished to alter fundamentally.

Most of us see it in a constellation which represents a collective recollection or aspiration. Those that can, will observe the Tower's form shifting in the sigil that represents CHIM.

To see the Tower is not necessarily to realise its secret.

CHIM is a state of being, achieved through application of the secret that the Tower holds.

Where the Tower can be impersonal, CHIM is the direct experience of the Tower's mystery.

It is the moment of becoming what the Tower signifies.


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Re: The Thief goes to Cyrodiil [Re: Vehk]
      #1840115 - 10/06/03 10:50 AM

Quote:


What is ' chim '?

From the Ehlnofex: an ancient sigil connoting 'royalty', 'starlight', and 'high splendor'. As with most characters of that dangerous language, the sigil CHIM constantly distorts itself. Those scholars that can perceive its shape regard it as a Crowned Tower that threatens to break apart at the slightest break in concentration.

Representations of the chim, and by extension the Psijic Endeavor, are always protean values, such as the anumidi models renowned by the Dwemer, the Scarab of contemporary astrolothurges , and the Striking ("exact egg-cracking") of old Argonia. All of these representations possess an innate and constant aspect of transformation.





My Lord Vehk,

I understand that CHIM is that which changes. However I'm confused as to why it should change. I'm especially confused about how an anumidi that has a protean (changing) value or for that matter the Scarab of contemporary astrolothurges. Could you elaborate on how those have protean values that change? How do they change? When do they change? How do you predict the protean value next? How do you determine its true value the dividend?

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Re: The Thief goes to Cyrodiil [Re: Nigedo]
      #1840367 - 10/06/03 01:22 PM

I should have said that I am just as happy to be wrong in my understanding of CHIM. This is just how it appears to me.

My tone of my last post seems far too definite, on revision.

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Re: The Thief goes to Cyrodiil [Re: B]
      #1840991 - 10/06/03 06:23 PM

"Do you see my ignorance? I wear it upon my sleeve for all to see. "

Its not a pretty sight.

You guys look like you are a lot more enlightned after vehk sermon but i feel i am much worse than i was before.

I thought the CHIM was something some group of spell casters were trying to do that would free them from the mortal bound based on the remains left by the Elhnofex. But vehk says that Lorkan performed the CHIM. I can only see one reason for it, to create a world like mundus. So the CHIM would be a process by which the Aedra would be able to create another world. Or i am messing everything up. Hey im only doing this so B doesnt feel so bad with himself.


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Re: The Thief goes to Cyrodiil [Re: zingbat]
      #1841282 - 10/06/03 07:46 PM

Quote:

Hey im only doing this so B doesnt feel so bad with himself.




Hey, come to think of it, I'm starting to feel better already. Thanks!

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Re: The Thief goes to Cyrodiil [Re: B]
      #1843789 - 10/07/03 08:51 PM

I told you so.

I think that this roleplaying profet vehk is giving more info than it seams. In objective terms it appears that the chim is an ancient sigil in the magical Ehlnofex language that when focused represents a tower image. Any connection with the Direnni Tower the oldest building in Tamriel ?

Lhorkan the entity revealed by the profet Veloth could be one of the creators of this sigil and it represents something important with the process of creation.

The use of the chim is responsable for the life of the anumidi models, something about Argonia and an event called "egg cracking", etc... Its a powerfull type of primordial magic and very hard to control.

A very old group of spell casters the psijjics apparently studied this sigil and from it they started to venerate an entity called PSJJJJJ connected with Pandomei.

Finnaly the prophet raises an enigma. Lhorkan the entity connected to the tower sigil simulated the creation of this world but he introduced a flow in the creation. Apprently he failed because he wanted for others to learn how to use it right. There is something strange about this idea. Why would a prophet want to say such a thing ?

Correct me in any mistake i made or let me deprave the Elderscrolls with inpunnity.


Edited by zingbat (10/07/03 08:55 PM)

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Re: The Thief goes to Cyrodiil [Re: zingbat]
      #1843814 - 10/07/03 09:01 PM

Quote:

Any connection with the Direnni Tower the oldest building in Tamriel ?



I would think so, yes. The Tower was the most important icon to Lorkhan and he was leading the Aedric convocation that led them to construct the Adamantine Tower.

Quote:

Lhorkan the entity revealed by the profet Veloth could be one of the creators of this sigil and it represents something important with the process of creation.



Vehk explained Lorkhan's experience, of recognising The Tower during the pre-dawn era of creation, at the start of this thread.

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Re: The Thief goes to Cyrodiil [Re: Nigedo]
      #1848316 - 10/09/03 05:45 PM

Interesting info about the Direnni Tower Nigedo. So Lhorkan did walk in the world of Nirn alive and built a tower, before he was wiped out ?

About the previous posts from this rpg profet Vhek i could read them again and again and not understand anything. He speaks in riddles and images and i understand what senses show me of the reality of this fantasy world.

Let me explain what reality in a phantasy world means to me. The habitants of Nirn sense magic, use it and feel their effects. This is real to them however they may not neccessarly have to understand it logically.

The wizard can interpret the magic language that changes shape and have to interpret it over and over again to be able to cast the magic words that make their thoughts come to reality. This is also real, made of sounds and uninteligle words unless for the caster. Their effects change the world without casuality.

The people of Nirn can contact and communicate with the divinities. They see the aedra and daedra as personifications of people like them. They appear real to them.

However a person in tamriel with some curiosity and not just an obvious actor playing a role in a story would question him or herself about the origins of the magic language. When was the first scroll found or was magic given away by the daedra ? Perahps the primordial men/mer/thing were nothing but servants of the aedra and knew magic from the beggining of the world.

But the biggest question to me is not knowing what Vehk means but how he would know such things. Being just a simple prophet of elf origins he knows details about the tower, the creation, and of magical entities like Lhorkan and what happened in the past probably long before any mortal was put a foot in Nirn.


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Re: The Thief goes to Cyrodiil [Re: zingbat]
      #1848434 - 10/09/03 06:31 PM

Zingbat,

Respectfully, I must correct your errors.

Master Vehk is not "a simple prophet of elf origins". He is the former god, Vivec, who has lived amongst mortals for at least three and a half thousand years.

If this should not be sufficient time to learn such secrets, he has observed the mysteries of which he speaks first hand, having co-existed in the timelessness of divinity and having observed Tamriel's past and future from his Provisional House.

The sigil CHIM, that Vehk has disclosed, is not a form of 'magic' that is readily available to mages and other such common exponents of the arcane. It is a remnant of the language of the immortals and signifies a power equivalent the to the laws of nature themselves.

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Re: The Thief goes to Cyrodiil [Re: Nigedo]
      #1852435 - 10/11/03 06:11 AM

That must be it. I think your theory explains it very well. I didnt realized that Vivec after becoming a god could have a much greater insight into the timeline (that is past, present and future) than anyother mortal could. No wonder why Vhek speaks in so many readles like he has loosen a marble or something. Seeing things from the eyes of a god and becoming a god must be too much that only a few could sustain. I think that Vivec could even be thankfull after he was released from its godwood and preserved what was left of his sanity.

You guys carry on looking into the riddles of Vhek that is too much for my poor knowledge of english.


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